Get Hired in an "Impossible" CS Job Market

 Intro Hey, CS Psychos. I am so excited to be back with you all, and today we have the incredible Carly Agar joining us to talk about the CS job market. We're gonna dig into the differences we're seeing when looking for CSM roles versus CS leadership roles, the totally logical resume mistakes people make that keep their resumes from getting seen, and the simple changes you can make in your job search to help you land the high-paying CS role you deserve. That's all coming up next right here on "Psychology of 📍 Customer Success." Stay tuned. We were What We're Seeing in CS Hiring saying this is a conversation that we have all the time. We do kind of similar things in this area of our businesses. I tend to work more with leaders, you tend to work more with experienced customer success people. But we're always comparing, like, what are we seeing in the market? What are we seeing in hiring trends? What's changing? What's working? What's not? And so often that we're just kind of gabbing about this, and today we're gonna let you sneak into the room with us and listen to what we're seeing here in the CS hiring world. So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, we literally have this conversation all the time in different forms. Sometimes it's over text, sometimes it's on a phone call. Yeah. But I think it's fun to let people in, one, because I think there's gonna be a lot of valuable stuff that comes out of it. I know I'm always learning from you, and I hope vice versa, just in terms of what we're seeing. Oh, God, yes, from you. But I think it's also kind of like a fun or funny way for people to see how nerdy we are about this stuff. Like, when we say, like, we're keeping our fingers on the pulse of everything that's happening, like, we actually are. So I, I don't know, I'm excited for people to get to hear this. Yeah, I mean, we have to, you know, because it's like I'm always telling people in my other program, in Customer Success Leadership Academy, like, "You guys are the boots on the ground. I haven't been boots on the ground in a CS role in four years." Yeah. But that's why I listen to them, and I'm grilling them all the time, and going to all these events, and asking all these things, and reading far too much to make sure that I know everything that's going on- Yeah ... so that I can keep up with this stuff. But I think that is a little actually easier to do on the hiring side, because you're not caught in your own company's way of doing things, 'cause it's real easy to be like- 100% ... well, this is how everyone must do it, you know? Yeah, or even- This is how we do it ... even not just company, but even, like, company size or- Mm-hmm, yeah industry, right? Mm-hmm. Like, the way that cybersecurity hiring managers look for candidates at both CSM level and leadership level versus MarTech is completely different. Yes. Yes, absolutely. So one thing I want to Is Applying on LinkedIn Dead? kind of take away all the misconceptions to the best we can is about applying on LinkedIn, applying on job boards. I'm sure you see this a lot. You know, I'm always having people come to me and being like, "I've applied to over 100 jobs. I haven't gotten a single interview." And people are talking a lot now these days about, like, ghost jobs and scams happening with people hiring. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts on applying on LinkedIn? Is it dead? Are we still doing it? Should you be doing that from 9:00 to 5:00 as if it's your full job? Like, I certainly have thoughts on this. I think we agree- Yeah ... in many ways. But I always love to hear what you're doing, how you fit that in, 'cause, like, we fit it in with part of our strategy, but it's certainly not the whole thing. Yeah. What you just said is exactly what I'm still seeing and still telling my clients to do. Like, applying online, it's such an easy thing to fearmonger against- Mm ... because it sounds sexy. Oh, yeah. Applying online is dead is so sexy. I wish that was real because I would love to tell people that that's true- Yeah because it sounds great. Make our jobs easier. The reality is if you don't apply to the job, you're not getting the job. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, there's so many angles to talk about that from. Like, no, applying online is not dead However, applying to every job you see from 9:00 to 5:00, or worse, throwing your resume in a tool like, what's the latest one? Uh, Simply Apply- Oh, yeah ... where it applies to jobs for you, trash. Pretty much. Yep. And while, you know, in the same breath that I'm saying apply online is not dead, there's more that you have to do. For us, I'd s- I wouldn't just rely on cold applications No You gotta be doing other stuff, which I'm sure we'll get to. Yeah, like, for us, I'd say it's about 20% of your strategy, but you have to look for each stage, like, what is it getting you? Yeah. Is applying online getting you interviews? If it's not, a couple things could be going on. You could be applying to jobs at the wrong level. You could be using a crummy tool that's making you look not too professional, or what- Mm-hmm most of the time it means to me is that your resume is not telling the right story. Yeah. The Problem with AI-Generated Resumes And you know what I see so many times is people just, like, putting their resume into AI and saying, like, "Write me a good customer success resume that's gonna get me lots of interviews and a high salary or whatever." And while I'm certainly not anti-AI, I'm in there all day, every day, what I'm hearing from a lot of hiring managers is, like, "I get the exact same resume over and over and over, and I don't look at any of them that look exactly the same because it's just noise." And it has to actually be based on you and your experience, and it can't pull that out for you. As we were getting onto this call, I was making a slide for a training I'm doing next week, and I'm trying to be a little bit bolder in the claims- Mm-hmm ... that I'm making, and just a little bit more entertaining, 'cause I think everyone's tired of hearing, like, "Stop using AI for your resume. Stop using AI for your resume." I'm calling it the great, like, blah-ification of resumes. Yes. Yes. And I literally have a slide where I pulled up five CSM resumes at random, and I screenshotted any bullet that had the word expansion in it, and then I'm gonna pose a question to anyone on this training where it's like, if you're looking for someone who's really good at selling, not just someone who's closed expansion, I mean really good at selling, like, can put together ROI analyses, can navigate these really complex enterprise organizations, can build out, you know, an org map with their sales partner, who are you picking? And you read these bullets, and you're like, they all sound the same, and none of them sound like they can do what you're describing. Right. Exactly. And it's so funny because these people are so smart and so good at their job. Yeah. But I really think that job hunting is really weird. Okay? It's so weird. It's a really weird skill set. And it's one of those things that you only use, and it's a few different ones. You know, it's resume writing, which is the weirdest language anyone has ever spoken in. Uh. Like, if you went into a party and met people and it was like, "Well, what do you do?" "Well, I've optimized outcomes and increased NRR- expansion for a 5 million book of business over the-" Yeah ... "past 18 months, year over year. I've ha-" It's like, what the hell are you talking about? And she's like, "Okay, I'm backing away from that person." It is- Yeah ... it is a different language. It is. So there's that, and then there's, like, some stranger grilling you. This is not a normal conversation. It's more like- Yeah ... a bad first date where, with a really weird power imbalance and then, like- Yeah ... a presentation on something where the people you're presenting to know more than you do, which is never the case in real life. Right. So it's like, and you're using these skills for a few months, hopefully every, like, three, five, 10 years, so it's not something- Yeah you're gonna get good at. And you throw pressure onto it. Right. Right. And I think where a lot of people get hung up, I know I certainly would, like, if I was job searching, this would 100% be me, is I would be... Maybe I have a big ego, but I would be walking around like, "I've got great experience. I'm amazing at my job. Like, this shit doesn't matter. Who cares what my resume says?" Like, they're gonna know. They're gonna see through it. Yeah. They're gonna know I'm amazing. And I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. It's almost like, well, let me just, my experience should speak for itself. And look, that's a big problem in CS in general. People, like, work their asses off and expect that to be enough to- Yeah ... get recognition, and it's not. Yeah. No one is sitting there being like, 'Wow, she's just doing all this amazing work and not taking any credit for it.' And they're just... It's like, no, you are really shooting yourself in the foot. I wish it was that way. If I can- Sure ... if I can solve a problem in the job-seeking realm, it would be getting rid of the traditional way of applying to jobs, reviewing candidates. Like, resumes are dumb. Yeah. They're so dumb. No one wants to read one. They're so outdated. It's so unnatural. Yeah, recruiters don't like reading them. Like- No ... any hiring manager will tell you it's really hard to tell what a candidate's about by reading their resume. But, I'm getting back to the point here, that's the game we have to play right now, and a lot of people- Yep ... just don't, they just don't know how to speak resume, which is fine. Yep. That's not your job. That's- And one of the funny things about that you touched on, just like sparking a brain thing that I'm always mentioning to people. You know, I'm a huge psych nerd, and what I tend to do is look at, you know, here's how we think it should be, this is what makes logical sense, except- Hmm ... the brain is not logical. People are not logical. How does the brain actually work? What do they actually do? And let's optimize for that instead of what actually makes sense. I mean, how much of your resume do you really think a recruiter is reading? If you think they're on the second page reading the third bullet point from the bottom, I'm so sorry to tell you. Yeah. It's probably never been read. They are reading your title, probably the first couple bullet points of your most recent job. Mm-hmm. How Recruiters Read Resumes & Resume Structure Those are the... Like, you absolutely have to optimize the entire thing, 'cause no matter where their eyes land, it needs to be great, but those are the places. I've actually looked at studies of, like, heat maps of where recruiters' eyes go, or hiring managers' eyes go on a resume, and they're, like, consistently job title, first two bullets of the most recent job. So it's like if you're not smacking them in the face with revenue there- Mm-hmm ... you've lost. Ooh, okay. Two good questions for you, 'cause I don't know that you and I have actually ever talked about this. One is what are your thoughts on highlights sections at the top- Mm ... of the resume? First question. Second question is what do you think the first bullet under a role should be? Okay. And I really think you can probably go either way with this, but I do have a strong stance. I don't like highlights. Okay, me either. Um, good. Uh, I think it- 'Cause they're just looking for the, they're just looking for the first role. They're like, "Where's, what role are you in now?" Exactly. They're scanning past it. Right. Yeah. They're scanning past it, and you've already lost, like, the first page to it, and it's like, are these recent? Are these even recent? Like, they don't know. They wanna know like, okay, well- Yeah ... what have you done recently? I don't care if you did that in 2020. The thing- You know? And like, logically, it should make sense. Like, these are great things I've done. Because- That's not how anyone reads a resume. So I think the first thing should be And again, I tend to do this for leaders, but I will lead with NRR. Like, if you improved NRR- Mm-hmm take the, either the percentage that you improved it or the actual NRR itself, whichever is higher numbers. Probably it's gonna be NRR, I hope- Yeah ... to God. Yeah. But it's like, you know, took NRR from 95 to 105 over the course of 12 months for, you know, for a book of business of 15 million ARR. There it is. Something like that. Okay. Yeah. Yep. So- Numbers, numbers, numbers, and then you say how many people you led if you're a leader. So it's like, well, how many people was this? Like, how many account? Like, all right, so led five people across, 230 SMB accounts so you're giving a sense of like, okay, but what was this for? Yes. And then beyond that, I have a whole list of things that I have people go through that's a checklist that is like, all right, have you done these things? Because most of the time people have done a lot of them, but it wouldn't occur to them to put them on a resume, when it's like these are not only keywords, but these skills and these initiatives are probably how you got those results. Yeah. So- Yeah ... we want you to list those, and this is how we tend to beef out the first job or two is, like, we list those initiatives. Like, uh, built an end-to-end customer journey along with the playbooks for enterprise and tech touch, and then I'm thinking like, well, what did that do? It's like to standardize best practice resulting in an increase in time to first value by 30% within the first six months, whatever. You know, you want the result in there. So we have just a whole list of things like that that people are like, "I, I didn't think to put that in there." Or things where they're like, "Well, I don't have the exact numbers. I left. I didn't take the numbers with me. We weren't even sure what the numbers were." We have ways- Mm ... that we pull that out of them as well, even when they're like, "Wow, I didn't know I knew that and I did." So- Ooh, okay ... those are, those are the couple of things. Yeah, I was gonna say for highlights, we're aligned. What I usually tell people is, like, going back to your point about it be- feeling logical. Mm-hmm. It's like it totally does. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense that you would have- Yeah ... highlights. However- It just doesn't work ... what happens is when a recruiter or hiring manager reads those highlights, they're immediately just going, "I'm not gonna believe this until I see it in your bullets under your roles." Exactly. Exactly. So it's, it's really just a waste of space. Waste of space. And then I was glad to hear you say the first bullet under the role is big achievement, usually NRR- Mm-hmm ... and then scope. I- Yes ... was on a call, I think it was last week. Might've been this week. I can't remember. But we're doing some light recruiting, so we're helping- Yeah companies fill CSM seats. And you know how you always hear, like, recruiters look at a resume for six seconds? Yeah. Or seven seconds, whatever it is. We've all heard that Until you see it happen live- Oh, no, I fully, I fully believed that. Yeah ... it is mind-blowing. So I was on a call with, it was a head of CS, I forget their title, and then the recruiter, and they were like, "Well, we're actually just gonna pull up some resumes in front of you so we can kind of talk through, like, what we're looking for, we're not looking for." The first six or seven resumes, I mean, it must have been a second and a half where it didn't list the segment of customers that that CSM managed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it'd be like owned 4 million in ARR, owned a portfolio of 30 customers representing this AR. None of them said SMB, mid-market, enterprise, strategic, and they just like, "Next, next, next." And the funny thing is that was them. There are plenty of companies that wouldn't have that specific thing, but that's why the... I think it's really important to be as specific as possible. A lot of people, the mistake they make there is like, "Well, I don't wanna only be pigeonholed into SMB. I wanna do enterprise." Yeah. That, to me, is a jump that is just not... That's one of my, like- It's not realistic right now. Like- It's not even a stretch. Yeah. It's just not realistic. Like people who come to me and they're like, "Well, I've been a senior CSM, and I wanna become a CS leader." And I'm like, "Let's talk about how to get you promoted," because that is much more likely to happen- Yeah ... than moving from a senior CS- or maybe a founding CSM role, but they have so many managers, directors, VPs out there who are all competing for these jobs, who are all on the market. You could be incredible at your job, but no one's gonna be like, "Well, this person has 15 years experience and you have none." Yeah. "So let's take a chance on you for the same amount of money." Yeah. Our, our hard rule right now, and it sucks because there are so many people that are on the cusp that probably- I know ... should have been in leader positions already- Oh, I know. Yeah ... and were never given the opportunity. But when folks come to us, I mean, just like you were, we're completely transparent and direct. Like, hey, you know, if you get a leader role, amazing. That will be a miracle. Right. But if you've not ever managed people in a- Right ... in a CSM function in SaaS- Right. Yeah. And they're like, " I managed people 10 years ago." Then founding CSM- Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, like that- No ... old management experience or even managing a different team. Like if you manage professional services- Yeah ... it's just not, it's not gonna happen right now. Like, I agree with you. It is transferable. It should be fine. Yeah. But that is not how the hiring managers feel. 'Cause like, again, I'm sure it's fine, but it's easier to know like, yes, they have done this and it's proven. That's just safer for them, you know? I was just gonna say, the thing in this hiring market is employers don't need to take risks So they're not going to What I will say is that we do see it sometimes where people have managed, and they've been doing the role of a CS leader, but they were never given the title, and this pisses me off. Mm-hmm. So they get a little talking to from me about how to make that happen next time, and how we're not gonna allow this to happen in the next role. Um- I'm surprised. Oh, yeah, yeah. CS people are not great about asking for promotions, or they're not great about- Oh, that's- Yeah ... that I'm not surprised about. The title thing- But it's like- ... I'm surprised about ... so many times they will do the job without the title, and I did this. I did a post about this the other day. Like, I did a job for nine months that was a director role that was more than double my salary, at least for the men who were doing it, 'cause it was only men doing it. Of course. But I was fulfilling that role, and they kept saying, like, "Yeah, we're gonna give you the title and salary change. Yeah, we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it," and it was always like, "Oh, we can't do it this month because we can't do for that month." Nine months, right? And finally I went in and said to them, you know, like, "Your free introductory trial period is over." And I said it on a day that was, like, really, really high stakes. I still don't believe that I was this daring. I don't know- ... what I, what I did that morning. You blacked out that day. I did. But, like, I was like, "Look, either you pay me for this job, like you sign something today that says that with the next pay period, this is my pay and this is my title, or I am going to do the work of my role that you are paying me for, which means- Yeah I don't manage any of this because- Yeah ... you're not paying me to, and you haven't." And I got it, and I looked super confident, and I pulled a muscle in my leg 'cause I was crossing them so tightly. I was so terrified that I pulled my calf muscle, and I had to limp out of the office. So, which is just the most me thing ever. Mm. But it's like you shouldn't have to get to the point where you're mad enough to do that. And that is- Yeah ... something that, like, we work on in other capacities, but I do see this a lot because we're not... You know, CS people are not very confrontational. They're not great at tooting their own horn. We're people pleasers. You know, these are all things we gotta work at. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So- Wait, so then, well, I wanna ask you about the, an opposite scenario- Sure ... which is one that I see a lot, which is when folks come in and their titles have clearly been inflated. Mm. And it's like, "I'm a VP of customer success," yet they've never managed anyone. You go to look and it's, you know, a Title Inflation vs. Title Deflation 10-person SaaS company. Right. And they've just grown in the role all the time- Yeah ... they've been there. My personal stance is we're changing the title, which is not something I usually advocate for on a resume. Right. It's something where... 'Cause a lot of times people will be really re- resistant to that. That would be my instinct, too. The only weird, the only thing there is that- It can get weird, because I do believe in changing the title, and here's how I do it for either people in that situation or the other situation. I will list the title correctly. So I will say, like, "Manager of CS," and in parentheses next to it, "Titled as CSM." Yes. Yeah. So that we're being honest. Mm-hmm. But then the bullets back it up. It's like, "Titled as CSM, but I'm managing a team of three." Yeah. "I'm across this number of accounts. I'm setting strategy. I'm doing segmentation." So you're showing like, "Yeah, here's what I was doing." Yeah. "Here's what they were calling me." So that way you're not in some last final thing and they're like, "We called and they said you're a VP. Like, what is happening?" Yeah. Like, this is weird. Well, and the... It doesn't hurt you as much in that direction. Right? Right, I know it hurts more in the other direction. You know, they call their references- Yeah and they're like, "Oh, I thought we were hiring a senior CSM. Turns out they're a VP." But- Right ... in the other direction- But wouldn't you be like, wouldn't you be like, "What is up?" Oh, it's still, it's still- Like, that one would concern me more. I'd be like... Yeah. You, you still need to put the real title. Right. Because when they run the background check, you want it... You just, you need to appear honest. Right. I had this happen with a client in the opposite direction, and it pissed me off so much to the point where I was like, "Maybe I should, like, reach out to leadership at this company." She was being called associate CSM, but was by all intents and purposes an enterprise CSM. And I was like- Yeah, that's BS ... "Your title is killing you." Yes. Yes. That's not right. Um- That sucks. Yeah. That really sucks. Yeah, that does. So in those cases we're doing, we do exactly the same. I do think that some companies- It's real title, intended title ... Yeah. I do think that some companies, I don't like to believe this, but I think they might be intentionally sabotaging so that people can't leave for another company as easily. I mean, there's really no other explanation. You have to be thinking- Yeah, you have to know ... this is not an associate CSM. Right. Like, it's an intentional choice. It's not an accident. I mean, I am very much a Pollyanna and tend to give the benefit of the doubt wherever I can, and people know shit about CS. They truly do not know their ass from their elbow. Um- I mean, the funny thing is it's an HR company, HR tech, so- Even so, I'm telling you, the, how much does HR have CS typically? HR, they know a lot about their own stuff, but they don't know a lot... And look, I was in a role where I built a CS department for a Fortune 500 company, and they called me an implementation architect. I should never architect anything. Ugh. That makes me sound very technical. Technical. Which I would fail at. And it's also like, no, I was, like, building the first CS department. I was, like, head of CS or, you know, a director. Yeah. I was probably, like, a director of CS, 'cause there was, like, a VP above me. And there were a few other of us building it, but it's like... And, you know, back in, back in the day, before CS was as revenue-focused as it was now, I saw people called like customer happiness department. I was gonna bring up customer happiness. Barf I know You touched on something that I wanted to talk about, 'cause I'm sure people stress about this all the time, we hear it all the time- Mm-hmm which is numbers. It sounds like- Yep ... your Numbers on Resumes: Show the Impact stance is totally fine to guesstimate. Mm-hmm. Ours is just, like, if you can reasonably talk to it in an interview- Right ... it's fine to put there. Like, if you can- Yes ... explain how- Right ... you got to it, you're fine. Exactly. Exactly. And I would never advocate for saying something where you're like, "Truly, I couldn't tell you if it was 80% or 20%." Don't do it. You're gonna be anxious. It's gonna come across. Yeah. Like, just don't do it. But if it's, like, where you can reasonably approximate, absolutely, because it's not like they're going, not like they have the ability to look at financials of this company. And again, this isn't about dishonesty, it's about they just wanna know what you can do. Yeah. And if you don't give them hard numbers around, like, this was the effect it had, they have no reason to believe you. They can't understand the impact you've had. Mm-hmm. Without numbers, there is no impact. Mm-hmm. It's just like, well, I standardized this. Okay, great. Did it matter? You know? Like, you did all these things. I- Why? So what? I explain a- Yeah ... I see so many bullets. I get, like, so heated about this. I know. Just 'cause I'm like, I wanna fix it for everyone. Yes. So many bullets that are like, you know, exceeded retention goals or drove expansion, or the, you know, you have the verb, you have the thing, and then there's no number. And I- Mm-hmm ... a new thing I'm saying is, like, that's like reading a world's best coffee sign on a diner. Like, I can go on Google right now and I can buy a world's best coffee sign and stick it- Mm-hmm ... on the front of my house. Yeah. According to my mom, you know? There's zero proof that it's the best coffee. Right. Like, that- Right ... is what your resume bullets with no numbers are doing. It's just- Exactly. Exactly ... bullshit. Yeah. It's like- Unfortunately. And the thing is, like, you could absolutely be lying about the numbers, so it's weird. But just saying that you did it without any sort of context as to how... It's like, well, did you increase it by 5% or 80? You know? Like, that's kind of- Yeah ... relevant. You know? Well, and if you... I feel like nowadays when you look at a resume that has little to no numbers on it, your mind immediately- You know, yeah ... is like- Oh, they can't ... this person must have been terrible at their job, or they're just lazy as hell. And- You don't wanna hire that person e- e- either one. Yeah. You're like- Right? ... why are they hiding their numbers? It must have been horrible. Like- Yeah ... I wouldn't assume they're lazy, but it would just be like, I don't think people- Oh, I would ... register. You know, you talk about, like, the one-second thing. Huge ADHD brain here. I am one second- Yeah ... and we're, we're on to the next. Mm-hmm. So it's like when you're looking at something that fast, it's like you're not even thinking it through that fast. You're just like, "Nope, nope, nope, I'm not-" Yeah ... like, it's not hitting me. It's not clicking. Yeah. And that may be all the reasons, and that's what we have to think through on our end, like, what are all the reasons, what are all the things that gets it to hit? But they're not thinking through, like, "Well, this person was lazy, and this..." Like, it's just like, nope, no numbers, no idea. You know? Just like, not there, not it, not it, not it. So- Yeah ... that's where it's like I don't think it's... I do think it's that deep, but I don't think it's conscious that people are thinking that. Oh, I totally agree, and this is why I, truthfully, and I think you know this 'cause we've been talking about it for so long, I used to hate resumes. They used to be... I used to think all day and all night long about how we could help people land jobs without rewriting their resumes because I just did not like them. Yeah. They take a lot of time. They're really hard. But five years later, now I can say they're one of my favorite things that we work on. Yeah. ' Cause of we've like, we've removed the guesswork from that- Right ... unconscious decision-making just 'cause we have so much data. So like the ability that we have to analyze resumes and the ones get, that get picked has made it so that it's really easy to know, like, these are the things you have to have. Yeah. You know, you have to have- Exactly ... X amount of numbers, it has to be formatted this way. And- Right ... why does that work? We don't know, but the data says it does. Yeah. It's like, I don't care. I don't... Like, that's not what I'm spending time analyzing. I am spending- Yeah ... time, uh, like unless it doesn't consistently work, then it's like, then you've picked the wrong thing. Yeah. But it's like, no, th- this consistent... You know, we've both been doing this for four, like you five years, I'm like four. We've both been doing this a long time and have seen- Yeah ... what works and what doesn't and tried different things. But yeah, and it's so funny because, like, I don't know about your... Like I said, applying online is like 20% of what we do. Mm-hmm. For us, most of it comes from the LinkedIn. So I'd say probably 60% of our, 50, 60, you know, it depends on the season, but s- about that much is inbound from- Mm-hmm ... recruiters and hiring managers coming to the CS LinkedIn Strategy & Mass Apply Tools leader based on what is on their LinkedIn. But we can't do the LinkedIn until we do the resume. Yeah. Right? 'Cause we have to figure- Yeah ... out what we're putting on there, and it can't be exactly the same, but that's where people are looking for... And I'm not sure, like, no, because I do talk to people. People reach out to me all the time and are like, uh, and this is why we do it this way, like optimizing for people to find them on LinkedIn, 'cause so many people are reaching out to me being like, "I'm hiring for CSMs, and I would rather set myself on fire than post on LinkedIn again and get 800 applications in the first day." Mm-hmm. Like, I cannot do that. I'm overwhelmed. There's no way I'm gonna go through all those. Like, do you have someone who will not suck, and that will be fine, you know? And it's like you probably want more than that, but it's like they're so desperate not to have to go through that whole thing, which is why so many people don't post anymore and just, like, ask their network or look themselves or- Yeah work with a recruiter if they can afford it, because it's just- Yeah ... like the process has gotten way too insane. I've seen a huge uptick in just recruiters being out there in general in customer- Oh, yeah ... success, but the amount of inbound opportunities in the last I wanna say the last 10 months, so probably starting towards, like, the end of 2025, we started to see it pick up. And this year, in all the years I've been doing this, we're seeing more inbound than we ever have. Yeah, it's insane. And another, like, interesting layer to this, we've, we've touched on it, but the mass apply tools- No. Absolutely not ... that is a huge reason why recruiters and companies don't want to post jobs online- Yep is because they're getting inundated with all these applications from all these people that aren't qualified, probably wouldn't even want- No ... the job. Right. And then it just wastes everyone's time, so they're like, "We're not gonna post it. We're just gonna go reach out to people." Right. Exactly. And if I were listening to this, skeptical gal that I am, I would probably be like, "Yeah, do you know how much cheaper those are than to work with one of you guys?" And it's like, yeah, I do, and there's a reason. Listen, if you wanna- Honestly- ... try a mass apply tool- Yeah ... try it Go for it. It's, I'm pretty sure it's- Um ... like $2 or it's free. Yeah, it's a waste of your time. By all means, try it. Yeah. Like, it's Honestly, if that worked, that would be so much easier for us to be like, "Great, we can take that off." I had this exact conversation with my partner last night. I was like, "I just wish those Mass Apply tools actually worked," because imagine marketing that. Oh, my God. Like Please. But here's- We have this one c- this one company keeps- Yeah ... like, they really want us to work with them and, like, white label- Mm-hmm their Mass Apply tools, so we get all their cold emails and cold calls. And in all their emails they're like, "We get a 1% interview rate for our, our applicants." I'm like, "1%?" That's horrible. " You're trying to sell me on this? Get outta here." Yeah. Yeah, that's terrible. One thing, and totally out of left field, vroom, um- Yeah. I'm ready ... because, and I The Done-With-You Resume Rewrite & Confidence think that you guys do this too, is, like, we do the rewrite with them. Like, it's a done with you process. Mm-hmm. And, like, there's some pre-work, obviously, beforehand- Yeah ... so that we can get it done in time, but, like, it's a done with you process. And my favorite part of it is actually because so many people come to us and they feel horrible about themselves, and they feel like they're just a number and they can never compete, and, like- Mm-hmm it's all over, like, what is happening. And- Yeah ... by the time we finish their resume, they're like, "Oh, my God, I did so much more than I realized." Yes. It's like, yeah, you did. Yeah. And having that, first of all as a way to represent themselves, but also it just, like, changes their self-perception. Like, maybe I don't suck, you know? Yeah. 'Cause especially after a layoff or something like that, it's very easy to feel like, well, they had to lay off... You know, they had to choose who they were laying off, and they did lay off me, so, you know- Oh, it's just- ... I'm clearly not the best at this. Yeah. And that's not true. There are many reasons that you can end up being picked for that, none of which have to do with your abilities. But just, like, so much of what we do, in addition to the skills, is the confidence. Absolutely. And that's what I love. I love seeing that change. Yeah. I'm so with you. There's just two things I'll say. One, we do something very similar where when we send the final resume, we'll send... We'll kind of, like, take their resume and compare it to profiles of people who are going after the same jobs, and we point out what makes them unique and different. Like- Yes ... you lean slightly more technical, and you have really strong expansion stories, and this and that, so that they can see, like, oh, okay, like I... Compared to other people going after the same jobs as me, like, I have these little things that make me different- Mm-hmm ... and special. My favorite thing about the confidence piece is, and I'm sure you've gotten this too, it's usually months after the person lands the job- We'll get an email, and it'll say, you know, "Hey team, I was talking to my husband," or, "I was talking to my cousin," or, "I was talking to a stranger at a coffee shop, and I told them... We got to talking about jobs, and I told them how I did this coaching program, and do you know anyone who does what you do, but in, like, engineering?" Mm-hmm. Because you just know that- 100% ... the confidence is radiating out of them, and it has stuck with them- Yep ... so much so that someone else in their life is like, "How do I get that?" Yep. That is the best promotion you can have, is attraction, not promotion. When people can just see, like, "Whoa, I want what you have." Yeah. Um- They're like, "What'd you do?" Yeah. The, "I want that. How do I get that?" And I mean, obviously you can't run a business on that, but that is the fricking best. And- Yeah ... the worst thing is, like, no, I don't know anyone in engineering. I know. I have, like, the, the most myopic, like, tiny circle of echo chamber customer success people. Um- I know. I know ... ' cause, like- I always- ... yes, there are recruiters out there, but I don't know what they do. Yeah. Like, no clue. Yeah. So obviously we went down a resume rabbit hole Interview Skills: Storytelling & Judgment because it's just, it, there's so much there, right? Now, here's something I hear a lot from people who have not been in the job market a long time, which is, "I'm fine as long as I get in the door. Once I get an interview, I'm gonna get the job." Oh, yeah. And I'm like, "Mm-hmm." Maybe six years ago, seven? Um- Not anymore. It's like, trust me, I used to be the same way. I get it. Yeah. It's not like that anymore. And that's why we don't break apart our services to do just the resume. Mm-hmm. Because we would be doing you a disservice because you think that's all you need, and we're just delaying the whole process for you. What's really- So, yeah ... interesting, and this is kind of a side tangent, we don't have to, like, really explore this. Yeah, yeah. But just something that... A conversation I'm having with more and more people recently is if you're losing in any of the interview stages, the first thing we look at is your interview skills. Mm-hmm. Like, how's your storytelling? What's your presence like? All, you know, all obvious things. But there are cases where the resume is the root of the problem of them losing job opportunities in interviews, and I think people have a really hard time connecting those dots. Because if your resume's getting you into the wrong rooms, where you're never gonna- Mm ... get the job to begin with, you're gonna always think, "It's my interviews, it's my interviews, it's my interviews." It's- Yep. And in rare cases, it's not. I totally get what you're saying. And, and that's funny because that's not something I've seen as much, but I think that's because CS leadership is a little bit more general than CSMs these days. Yeah. Um, ' cause what- CSM roles are so niche They're so specific now, yeah. Yeah. And not to say CS... Like, the company, you know, if you have that kind of experience, but it's really interesting because I get it, because I struggle with this in my marketing 'cause I have so much to say. And one of my coaches is always like, "No," like, "every single piece of your marketing has to say the same thing." I'm like, "They're gonna get bored." And he's like, "No, no." Like it... I was like, "You mean that's not cohesive?" "No, you're not saying the same thing here. You're saying something different." I'm like, "But it all matters." And they're absolutely right. People don't necessarily, and I say this when I'm teaching about communicating to executive leaders, you need to keep it broad and about the specific thing that they wanna talk about. Like, that sounds like- Mm-hmm ... a contradiction, but it's like- No ... this is, you know, here's what we're doing, here's how it's gonna affect revenue, what we expect. Here's what we're doing next. I can drill down on any of those things and give you more information, but that's the high level, right? We need to be giving people the high level or we're just confusing them, and it's the same with the interviews. Like, if you have optimized your resume 'cause you're like, "I want to move into enterprise and I'm optimizing my resume for enterprise," and then you get in the room and you can't talk about it because you've never done it- Mm-hmm ... again, you're wasting your own time. What we see a lot more often is, one, people don't know how to talk about their accomplishments, two, and this is a big one, and it also ties into, like, what I just said about keeping it tight. I tell people, "If you're going over 30 seconds, you're losing me." Mm-hmm. Like, a minute max if it's, like, a really impressive story. Like, I don't want you going over a minute for more than, like, one or two of your, like, biggest wins. I think- But, like, 30 seconds and tell them you're happy to drill down, but people just ramble because in CS we love the nuance. It's so important to us. It matters in how we handle things. Mm-hmm. But that's not the right communication style for either leadership or in an interview. Yep. If I had to rank... Oh, gosh, this is gonna be hard. Why am I setting myself up for this? Eh. If I had to rank the issues that we see in interviewing by what's most common, I would say number one is storytelling. Mm-hmm. It's just how they're presenting the information. Yeah. Usually it's we see them on a spectrum of either too detailed to where they're getting into nitty-gritty and it's like, I'm asleep, dude. Yeah. I'm not listening to this. Or it's so broad and high level that I'm like, "What'd you say?" Yeah. Yeah. Storytelling is one, and then two for me, and this is one that's bumped up recently, is a lack of showcasing your judgment. Mm. So there's a difference between a good interview story that shows you got a result once- And a good interview story that explains how you got to that result once, that guarantees you could get it again, and that's when you talk about, like, your decision-making process and the- Yes things you had to weigh between and s- the judgy piece. Such a good call. Such a good call, 'cause it can't just be like, "I did this and it turned out great." Well, that's great. It's like, if I was in love. Like, did everything line up for you nicely? Yeah. You know, it's like, what was the problem? Why is this special? So I do love that and, you know, we have, like, flashcards that we give for people to practice some common interview questions, and we don't put the answers on the back. We talk about, like, here are the parts that you need to hit. Like- Yes ... what was the problem? What did, you know, how did you do this in a bigger leadership capacity? How do you communicate that up, down, and sideways? Yeah. Was this an issue? Was this an issue? You know, and again, keeping it tight. Like, those are different questions on different topics. Yeah. But it's like, here's what they're really looking for. It's like, yes, we want something where you were successful, but we need to see why you were successful where someone else might not have been. What did you do differently? Totally. What were you thinking? Yeah. And, like- I li- ... always showing that you're thinking bigger, that you're thinking, "How am I moving the company forward?" Not, "How am I hitting my number?" You know? Mm-hmm. How are we getting greater numbers for the company? Like, a thing I hit h- home all the time is, like, you have to know how to tie everything back to revenue in a leadership role. Even if you are not the VP, you know, even if you are a manager of CS, you have to understand, like, if you're gonna be talking something, about something, how does that affect revenue if it goes the way you're suggesting versus going another way? What is the impact? Because that's what makes people care- Mm-hmm at levels above yours, 'cause otherwise, like, well, that's interesting, but it's not the top of our list. Now, other things that we see, and I don't know if this is something that you see, and it's something combined with a resume thing, like, uh, the, the first hint of it is usually on the resume, but there are words that you can use and phrasing that you can use Words to Avoid & Show Don't Tell that just is an automatic no, is gonna turn people off. Ooh. Um, mm. I, I think I have some in mind, but I'm curious to hear- Yep ... yours. I can't tell you how many people in their professional summary, or when they're talking about, like, what makes you special, they use the word empathetic. Uh, good at building relationships. Yeah. It's like- Comes to mind ... and th- those are really important. I'm not gonna tell you they're not. It's important at getting your job done. It's not what the other person needs to hear- Mm-hmm ... to- It, it doesn't have meaning- ... see you as valuable ... when you just say- Right ... the word. Yeah. It's like, "I like people," you know? That's like what you're saying. It's like, okay, but we need someone to increase revenue. Yeah. You know? And there's a distinction. Also, I don't care if you like people. Yeah. Can you interact with them? Right, and it's like, you know, and it's like, you're empathetic, so you're gonna be having feelings while we're doing this? Yeah, I can't- You know? ... I can't hire on empathetic. Right. Like, are you gonna cry on a call? Like, look, I am incredibly empathetic. That's my own problem. You know, it makes me care, and it's good that it makes me care, but empathy goes two ways, you know? It can also get in the way. So it's not what I would lead with. I would lead with the hard stuff, you know, data-driven and revenue-focused, or- Mm-hmm you know, strategic and dynamic. What... I hate the word dynamic, but you know what I mean. Um- Yeah. I hate the word dynamic, too. Things that... I do. Even though it's like I want you to be dynamic, but I don't want- Yeah ... to use that word. We need a better one. Um- What I love doing is, like, okay, if you are so stuck on... I don't wanna say stuck on, 'cause it's not a bad thing. But if you- Mm-hmm ... are, feel so passionately that, whether it's empathy or being dynamic or being proactive is, like, what makes you special- Right ... let's dig a little bit deeper. Like, what are the things that you do- Mm-hmm ... that make you proactive and someone else not? If I'm putting a, a camera recording you and your coworker for a full day from 9:00 to 5:00- Mm-hmm ... what is the camera gonna catch you doing that makes you proactive that doesn't make the other CSM proactive? Like, that's what you should be talking about. I'm grinning because something that I talk about so much with, you know, both on my podcast, in CSLA, in Dream Job, is marketing techniques, because you are marketing yourself. Yeah. Right? And that is a big-time marketing technique. It's like, what would this look like in a movie? Don't tell me you did it. What would it... What would be the opening scene? We're opening on the proactive CSM. What are they doing? What does it look like? Yeah. Show me the camera shot. Nobody talking over it. Like, that's what you need- Ooh ... to realize. Right? Right? Um- Let's use this more. Yeah. Anywhere you're using an adjective, talk about an activity instead. Um- Hmm. That's a good rule ... times... Right? Like, for a, for professional summary you can't do that as much, but, like, when you're talking about yourself- Mm-hmm you wanna say, like, "Well, I do this, I do this, and here's why." So- I do love- ... rather than, like, like show, don't tell Yeah. I do love showing and telling. I think it's okay- Mm-hmm ... in some cases to be like, "Because I'm proactive- Mm-hmm ... I took these steps," or like- That's fair. Yeah ... "Because I love analyzing data," 'cause I like to inject some of that, like, label yourself in your- Sure. Yes ... give them some labels. That can help. That can help. But yeah, I like the- But you have to show them what that means. It's like you can't- I like the- ... just say, like, "I'm really proactive," you know? Yeah, I like the combo. That's a really- Mm-hmm ... good way to think about it. It's just, like, how I hate the word stuck in anything. It's like you're stuck. It's like, well, are you a mom who can't get her kids out the door, or are you, like, a CS leader who can't get a role? Like anyone- Right ... who gets stuck. Is your foot trapped in a hole? What does that look like? Like, what do you mean? Exactly. It's like, what are you doing? What are the activities that you're in the middle of where you're like, "Ugh, I can't do this anymore"? What's on the camera? Yeah, exactly. What is on the camera? And I'm not even visual, but that is, you know- Oh, that's good ... like, put me in the scene because I... You know, that's what's gonna show me. And when you're in an interview, just explaining, like, "Here's who I am, and here's how that manifests." Like, "Here's the results I get because I do X, Y, and Z, because- Mm-hmm my thinking is like this. I'm able to get that result because I am always thinking about X." Ooh, I like that. Question for you. Mm-hmm. When you're working with a client who's getting ready for Shroud interviews- Hmm It's typically kind of like the same conversation over and over again. Yeah. What are your thoughts, though, and again, I'm gonna try to hide my thoughts, um, what are your thoughts on people having kind of like one summary that they use for every conversation? I already know your thoughts on this. Um- Okay. And it's actually funny because- Because it's good if we have different opinions Well, the funny thing is, you made me change my mind- Oh ... when I heard your thoughts on it. Um- Interesting ... even though it makes it harder, um- It does ... because what we did before, and still do to a degree, like, we have a baseline, right? Yes. We have a, an elevator pitch, right, that we helped you script. Yeah. So that, which is basically the answer to tell me about yourself. Walk me through your resume. I personally love... Yeah. Yeah. I personally love to hear that you have dogs, but most of the interviewers, that's not gonna be what they're looking for. So it's just generally gonna be like a, "Oh, well, I'm a role in X industry. I specialize in," a couple things you're really good at. "For the past few years, I've been doing X, and now I'm looking for a role where I can XYZ." And what we've changed a little bit after I heard you talk about it is, like, when you say, and we were kind of doing this, but we just, like, dug in deeper, is like- Yeah when you say what you're looking for, that should line up with the role. You know? With what they've talked about in the job description, with what kind of company they are. And a big part of that, too, I'm going a little bit off-script here, like off in a tangent, but one of the things that I think is missing so much from interviews is enthusiasm. And- Yes ... like, why them? Excitement. Yeah, like, why them? Like, you need a reason, and "Why This Company?" & Enthusiasm it doesn't have to be... You know, 'cause you're gonna be interviewing at places where it's not, you know, eco-saas. You're not saving the world. Yes. But it's like, why are you applying here instead of, like, Meta, because you're like, "I would sooner, like, sell my foot than work there." You know, whatever it is that you're like, "I would never." Why is this place cool? Why would you be able to wake up and be like, "Yeah, I feel good about this." You know, who are you helping? I tell my coaches, when you are reviewing a client's answer to why do you wanna work for this company, be so skeptical. Yeah. Because what everyone wants to say, and again, it goes back to that logic piece, it makes so much sense- Yeah. I know ... doesn't work, that you're like, "Well, I really wanna work at blah blah blah because of your mission to do this, and your products- And I looked your values on your website ... innovation really..." Yeah. And it's like, um- They don't remember what the values are on their website. They haven't lived by them- No ... except for, like, the first month. I always tell people, I'm like, "If you wouldn't say this to a friend, like- Right ... if you were sitting down with a friend getting coffee before your interview and they said, 'Why are you excited about this company?' If you wouldn't say it to them- Yes ... don't say it to the company. Right. 100% Like, if it's so formal and phony and, like- And- ... overly professional, it's not- Yeah ... gonna land. Because the honest thing is, you know, it, it would be great if we could all be like, "Because I need a job, and you need someone who does what I do." Yeah. Um, like- And- ... that's why I'm here. But it's like- Yeah ... okay, but you need to take it a step further. Like, if they offered you a job, would you be psyched? Why, other than, like, you will continue to have a roof, you know? It's like, why here? What are the things you would be excited about? Yeah. Talk about that. Like, you're always gonna end up being like, "And it's kinda cool because they do this, and, like, I'm kind of interested- Yeah ... in this." And like- Yeah ... you know, for me, it always comes down to, like, who am I helping and why? 'Cause that's what- Yeah ... drives me. So that's- I would- ... kinda my way into it. It's so much better to just, yes, you wanna be honest, but you also, you know, it's an interview, so we're selling- Yeah. Yeah ... a little. We're doing a little acting here. Yeah. Way better to say, "I've worked for a bunch of SAS companies where the product is not as mission critical as- Mm-hmm ... yours is, and that's- Yeah ... really exciting to me for X, Y, Z reasons." That is gonna land so much better than repeating their mission back to them. 100%. 'Cause they're gonna be like, "Oh, okay, that makes sense." Like- Right ... we align with something that's been missing for you, or something that you've been- Yeah ... looking for. Like, now I believe you. Oh, that's also something that, uh, that, you know, when people are like, "Why are you looking for a job?" Mm. Is, you know, it's the same thing in another form. It's like, what they're really checking for there is, like, are you The Dating Analogy & Puzzle Piece Theory gonna leave us the same way you left them? Yeah. Whatever you don't like, or even if you didn't leave of your own accord, like, is whatever caused you to not be there anymore going to be a problem for us? Yeah. So in the same way that you're like, "This is what I like about this company," it's like, oh no, that's specific to us. Mm-hmm. That's not like, "Oh, congratulations, you read the website." Like, yes, I'll check it off that you've researched it. But that's gonna ring true. So, like, when they're like, "Why..." God, I'm saying, like, a lot. Ugh. Um, so when they say, "Why are you looking for a new position?" And again, like, getting laid off is not the end of the world, I guarantee you. Right. Most people have been laid off at some time. But- Yeah ... you know, it's like, well, my company went through a reorg and, you know, they're not having this department anymore, they combined the departments, blah, blah, blah. We got taken over, whatever. But in a way it's kind of a blessing, because I really did want to get into X. You know, it's like, our company got acquired by Kit Kat. You know, it's like, that's not going to happen to you. Yeah. And, you know, I've really been wanting to pivot into a company that does focus on, you know, that is more product led, because it's that much easier to get customers to their goals when it's something easy to use. Mm-hmm. Or something, you know, I wanted to do something that's AI because, like, what isn't going to be AI? So I need to be at the forefront of that now. You know? Yeah. And here's what I've been doing for myself with AI, so I really wanna help other people do that too. You know, like, make it relevant to you and make it so that they feel like whatever the reason is, not an issue- Yeah that's going to affect them. They're not asking because they care about you. They're not- They're asking because- ... saying what's wrong with you ... they wanna know- I mean, a little. But- They wanna know what's hiding, you know, behind closed doors at their- Right ... company is gonna make you leave. It's like- I just thought of this as you were talking, but it's like, you know, you sit down on a blind date and the person across from you- It's so shocking is like, "Why'd you leave your ex?" And you're like, "Oh, they were, I don't know, a smoker and an alcoholic," and this and that, and they're sitting there thinking, "Well, shit, that's me too." Uh-oh. Like, this isn't gonna work. It's like they're, they're asking for themselves. Right. Exactly. They're literally not asking because they're trying to get a gotcha. They're just- Oh ... trying to not have to do this again in nine months. Yeah. And you probably feel the same. But yes, uh, the dating analogy is so, so accurate. Um- There's so many analogies to be made to job seeking. One that I am constantly reminding people of, especially when they've gone through a couple of rounds and, like, repeatedly haven't gotten the job. Mm-hmm. You know, like, yes, we're gonna work on, like, your final stuff, but I think of it like the puzzle piece theory, you know? You are not just interchangeable with every other person, and like, if you just do good enough and act perfect enough, you will be the right person for this other person, or the right person for this job. You are going to be a fit with a particular person. I don't believe that's just one person. I believe there are many people for each person. But it's not all interchangeable, right? Mm-hmm. So- Mm-hmm ... if you don't fit with a puzzle piece, that doesn't mean that you're a shitty puzzle piece. It means you didn't fit with that other puzzle piece, and that's it. Yeah. And there will be pieces you fit with, but it's not a reflection of who you are as a person or who you are as a professional. It's not predictive of anything in the future. It's just that those two particular puzzle pieces didn't go together- Mm-hmm ... and that, you know, sometimes rejection is protection. Better to know that now than in six months. I love the puzzle analogy because I feel like a lot of what you and I are doing all day, every day with our clients is helping people not obsess so much over being the puzzle that fits everywhere. Yes. The puzzle piece that fits everywhere. You, you're not gonna fit everywhere. No. No. You're not gonna- And it's better to be like, "I am a corner piece," right? I'm a corner piece with a, a thing that juts out on one side and one that goes in on the other. If you've got pieces that fit that- Come at me. Yeah. Right? And, uh, uh, I mean, the most important thing here that we're both saying without saying is, like, if you end up in the wrong puzzle, you're gonna be unhappy. It sucks. You're gonna be- Yeah ... uncomfortable. That's not- And now you feel like you gotta stay because you don't want another short stint. Oh, it just spirals from there. It sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's get on to AI before, because we're going long as it is. I love how we had a list of, like, 20 things to go over. And we didn't go over them, and I knew this would AI in CS Hiring happen. And we've touched maybe two of them. Well, we can always do this again. Um- No, we absolutely should ... but talk to me about AI in terms of, like, I think the biggest question is, first of all, everyone always feels behind. I could be building my own MCP and be like, "I'm so behind." So what are you seeing that people need to be able to do and be able to communicate in order to be ready enough with AI? I'm just gonna go with communicate because- Okay ... I think doing is harder in an interview process. Communicate, I would say you have to be able to prove that, and this is gonna vary from company to company. Hopefully th- that piece is obvious. Like, if you're- Yeah ... applying to work at Lovable, what you need to prove about your AI expertise is very different from somewhere else. Yes. However, I would say as a baseline for everyone, you have to show that you've embraced AI, and you've gone above just interacting with a chatbot. Yes. Whether that is, like, you've built an agent for yourself. Amazing. It sounds really elementary, but at least for individual contributor CS roles, that's what we're seeing. For leaders, different. You have to be- Mm-hmm ... building AI tools that are enabling your team. Yeah, I think it's, it is similar. You need a certain amount of fluency. You need to know- Mm-hmm ... the difference between a chat, you know, being able to create skills versus agents versus orchestration. Mm-hmm. You don't necessarily need to be able to do orchestration, okay? Yeah. That is a little bit more advanced. A lot of people talk about agents, and it's really just, like, kinda chained skills. That's really a workflow. Yeah. Whereas an agent is, like, a whole AI brain talking to a whole other AI brain that's able to, like, go back and forth and actually reason and get things right between them, and that takes so long to get right. But what you need to be able to show, it's like, "I'm not afraid of AI. I've built something." And let's say your last company didn't have you doing AI, right? 'Cause there are a shocking amount of companies that are like, "No, we won't let you connect to anything," or, I talk to so many CS leaders where it's like, "They won't give us more than the $20 plan." Mm-hmm. I'm on more than the $20 plan. I'm a one-person business. So you need to be able to have shown that you did something for yourself if you haven't done it at a company. And- Yes ... like, that you can- It's not an excuse to not embrace it right One of the things that we teach people to do is to set up their own kind of command center. This isn't in The Dream Job, this is in, like, my other program, CSLA. But we teach them to have, like, an AI command center. A lot of people have created one for themselves, but just something that's going to scrape all of your to-dos, your calendar. You know, who am I meeting with? What are we gonna talk about? What did I mean to ask them? What's on my list? What's slipping? And here's what you got done today. Here's what you should report up to your boss. Just, like, getting all the stuff that would be data entry or things that you... What I call $10 an hour tasks. Mm-hmm. Like, here's all the $10 an hour tasks I've gotten off my plate so that I can focus on strategy. So, like, this automated X hours of my work per week, and then I was able to focus on this, and I was able to work on it 10% faster. I'm nodding so hard I'm gonna give myself whiplash because- I think the most important part that I didn't mention, but you just included in your example, is when you talk about using AI to save you time or be more efficient or be faster or whatever, you always have to then end with what did you do with that time? Yeah. Like, what did that time give you? More time with customers, more time to do what with customers, for customers, internally, doesn't matter. Like, what did you do with the time that you got back? I can now spend two hours a day on my couch watching Bravo and eating Swedish Fish. That is my dream. Why are you crushing the dream? More... I can watch more Real Housewives season in a week. Exactly. Um- And that's going to feed my soul. And that's important. It is. That is my version of self-care, and we do need self-care. But it's maybe not what we talk about in the interview. But that still follows the same framework as, like, our, our resume thing. It's like- Everything else. Yeah ... what did you do? Everything in the job search. Why does it matter? How do you quantify that? Yeah. So what? It all comes down to that. So what I would say in terms of AI, like, you are not so behind that you can't get a job, I promise you, unless you're like, "I won't touch it. I'm against it." Mm-hmm. Just again, 'cause you don't wanna be wasting your time when money is on the line, right? So there are things out there, but again, it's just like this is something that I teach in general across all of my programs. Think about who you're talking to. What do they care about? What are they trying to achieve? When you're having a conversation as a leader with the head of sales, you're gonna be having a different interview conversation with them than the CTO or the CEO. What are they focused on? Speak to that. So if you're talking to an AI company, maybe you don't wanna go in there and be like, "I'm anti." You know? Well, and also what I'd add to that, and I hadn't thought about this until this very moment, but another way to think about just totally not embracing it or being able to speak to things you've done in it is if you're, whether you're interviewing for a leadership position or an IC position, chances are whomever is interviewing you feels behind when it comes to AI. I would say like 99% of people in- Yeah ... CS are gonna say, "I feel behind." So if that interviewer feels behind, and you walk in the room and you're like, "Oh, I, you know, I've barely touched it," or, "I've interacted with a chatbot here and there," they're not thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna hire you, and I'm gonna feel less behind." They're thinking, "Shit, you're gonna drag me even further behind." Yep. Yeah. So that's another way to think about it too, is like try to be at the level they're at, or at least show that you have like the ability to get to that level, the interest, the enthusiasm to get to that level. Otherwise, they're gonna think, "You're dead weight. You're gonna pull me down." Yeah. We're all just scared about our own asses, you know, and keeping our job. You know, that person could be on the other side of the table tomorrow, and they're aware of it. Yeah. Um, so again, what's in it for me? You have to think they're looking at you and just being like, "That's nice. What's in it for me?" Answer that question without them having to answer it, and you will do so much better. And with AI, as in all interview things, and I am not like a rah-rah girly, but enthusiasm goes a long way, you know? Yeah, it does. Showing that like, "I would love to learn more about this. I haven't quite done this yet, but like I'm really interested. Yeah. Love that. Well, I feel like we've talked about a lot, and we still have- Yes ... a lot more that we could cover, so we should record another one of these chats. But- Wrap Up & Key Themes Yeah ... what I usually do anytime I'm doing a recording is like, okay, what are the themes that I'm walking away with? Hmm. And I feel like, not surprising, but things we've never said out loud, is neither of us, being career coaches to customer success professionals, buy into any of the, like, really sexy shortcut, press the magic button solutions that are out there, despite us both feeling they are logical, sound like they should work. A lot of what we talked about is just, like, job seeking is not the same as being a CSM or a CS leader. They're different skillsets. It is a weird skillset. What's funny is, like, there's so much overlap in both what we advise, what we do. Mm-hmm. And that's because the things that work, work. It's like- There's evidence the top CS leaders all end up... Yeah, the top CS leaders all end up talking about the same thing. There's a reason. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because there are best practices that- Yeah ... work over and over. We would not have businesses if these things did not work. Yeah. Now, how we differ a little bit, but I think we get similar results for different types of people most of the time. There is some overlap, like, we do work with some, uh, CS professionals who are not leaders, but the vast majority are leaders. And, you know, Carly, vast majority are experienced CS professionals, but also handles leaders. And I would say, like, we're friends. The cool thing in CS, I think, is where other people see competition, we're just like, "No." We're like, "Go with who you resonate with. Go with who- Yeah ... feels right to you." We're not like, "I have to get these people, and you must have to get..." No. Yeah. It's like, you know, we're both really good at our jobs, and like- Yeah ... we want to help you. We're both here to help you. Um- The foundations are- Yeah ... extremely similar. The ways we go about them are a little bit different. And, like, someone who's gonna love working with you and your team and the way you guys go about things- Yeah is gonna be so happy, and someone who's gonna love the way we go about things is also gonna be really happy. Those are different people, so. Exactly. I think, like, my advice- And just like whatever you resonate with is just, like, go with that. Yeah. We... We're here to help the person who sounds like, yeah, they fit my vibe, or like, I like what they've said that resonates with me. That's where I need to improve. Mm-hmm. Uh, that's a good bet, you know? Yeah. Yeah. This was great. This was so much fun